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Please allow for broader fixture and personality customization with a "user fixture" category of common fixture types
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Posts:3 New Member

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2023-10-05 20:48

    I've run into a number of issues due to the inherent limitations of the built-in library. A large number of the topics I see in this forum would be solved by allowing the user to have broad customization of existing fixtures or creating a new category of user fixtures.

    Whether a light creates beams, which surfaces emit light, and the materials on each model are clearly things that are customizable by the developers. Obviously, so are the personalities of each fixture.

    I can, as an example, use a Martin Sceptron. The light source is an emissive surface and does not create beams in the air. I can alse use a GLP X4-20 bar, but it does create beams in the air. I can turn off "throws light" on the X4-20 bar, but then it doesn't actually cast light on something. This is an issue when I'm trying to use a fixture to light up a person on stage where a beam causes multiple issues.

    Many non-generic fixtures have different lenses that have different materials, yet they emit light just the same. Most of the surfaces on the fixtures are a dark grey and not a true black, which means any ambient lighting I add causes me to have to see fixtures that I wouldn't otherwise. This also causes issues with color rendering with ambient lighting. Dimming a light with the grey material to 20% in blue is essentially impossible because the ambient lighting hitting the fixture's material overpowers the emissision of the light.

    The solution Capture has given is to use the Texture generator function, which is my specific example as to why personality editing is essential. I simply have no control over the limited channel arrangements that fixture has. If I want strobe, I can't have it. If my fixture's personality is IRGB and not RGBI, I have to do some unfortunate things on the patching side to make my Previz work. 

    Once again, the developers very clearly have control over the following fixture attributes. Giving users control over the following would greatly improve each users' experience and eliminate many workarounds:

    • The material of a lighting fixture including its emissive surface
      • Suggested method: Allowing the user to drag materials onto generic fixtures similar to other 3D objects
         
    • Whether or not a lighting fixture creates beams in smoke
      • Suggested method: Adding a new drop down feature in the "selected item" section that gives users access to the "has beams" variable of each fixture.
         
    • The entire personality of a fixture
      • Suggested method 1: Allow users to upload a console's XML personality files to a user fixture
      • Suggested method 2: Create a new "custom personality" option on the fixture's drop down menu accessible in the "selected item" section that allows a user to add to the existing database file
         
    • Editing fixture's other attributes not mentioned above
      • Suggested method: Allow users to edit all of the other variables in a user fixture's database with an "advanced fixture editor" function.

    Please include these functions. I understand the desire to have the library as self-contained rather than as a separate file(s), and I don't believe implementing this function would harm that.

    There are manufacturer fixtures that SHOULDN'T have any more customization. There are generic fixtures that offer more customization, but that Capture still wants to provide regular library updates for. I'm suggesting a third category. A user spot, beam, omnidirectional bulb, etc (basically anything that already has a generic version) that gets one update push per year, but where users are otherwise on their own. This doesn't have to conflict with your regular update schedule, it doesn't have to change how the library functions, and it will solve so many issues!

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    Veteran Member
    Posts:301 Veteran Member

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    2023-10-06 10:37
    • Accepted Answer

    If you need fixtures to be be adapted to soemthing that is closer to what the fixture is doing in real life, the people responsable for the library are usually quite fast in providing updates to existing fixtures or producing new ones. 

    If you want a fixture to behave in way that it would not be possible in a real venue (fro instance having smoke or haze in the space, but a fixture not producing a beam), that is problematic in and of itself. What is the point of creating an impossible previsualisation?

    In my iedal world I would only have sliders for the following:

    1. Environmental (amount of smoke and haze and the behaviour of it in the air, like wind, particle size, etc.)

    2. Camera properties (Exposure, white balance, maybe bloom)

    3. Ambient light (work lights, daylight with time of day)

    That's it. All other adjustments should be possible by adjusting the insity of your light in cues. 

    Capture (thriouygh Atlabse) makes a big effort to make all photometrics of the fixtures and their lumen output as accurate as possible, so I think it is best to take that as a starting point for maikng adjustments instead of being able to tweak too many settings.

    Floriaan Ganzevoort
    Lighting Designer - Theatermachine
    New Member
    Posts:3 New Member

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    2023-10-07 01:24

    A good portion of the work I do requires creating stills for prospective clients.

     

    The beam of light that acts as front light doesn't take into account the viewing angle of incidence. In the real world, if I was looking at the stage from FOH, I wouldn't see the beam of light since I'm not looking in the direction of the source. Also, when I'm using eye candy fixtures, there just isn't enough tweaking available to prevent a wide-angle fixture from causing an unrealistic amount of light to be cast into the haze. 

    Besides all that, each light that interacts with haze takes computer resources. If I could turn off that interactions for the fixtures where I don't need to see it, it would speed up my file considerably. None of what I've mentioned so far can really be fixed in the cues without a lot of tweking of material settings on whatever subject is being lit.

    As for the personality side, I actually do work with custom fixtures quite a bit. The generic fixtures and texture generator function not having personality editing is a legitimate issue for me. They've been great when it comes to pushing specific changes through, but I just think it would be faster if people could do it themselves. 

    New Member
    Posts:7 New Member

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    2023-10-07 13:31

    Hi all,

    I'd like to second the request for personality customisation of fixtures.

    A real world example: We discovered through some controlled testing that the zoom of a Martin Mac Encore is visualised much larger in Capture than in real life with the fixture.  I contacted Capture to query this discrepancy, and received this response:

    At the moment, the attributes of the fixture in Capture are set according to the manufacturer's data provided.  Unfortunately, there is not much we can do with this fixture, as we need to stay aligned with the manufacturer's data.

    While I understand the desire of Capture to remain aligned with the data provided by the manufactures, the reality for users is the visualisation is incorrect.  

    Allowing users to customise fixtures seems a good compromise to me.  Capture could maintain alignment with the fixture data provided by the manufactures, and users could adjust fixtures to better match real world usage.

    This would be a huge improvement to the user's experience with the software.

    Cheers,

    Cookie

    Veteran Member
    Posts:301 Veteran Member

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    2023-10-09 13:47

    There is always a fine line between making soething more customisable and making it easier to use.

    Also I think it is important to distinguish two kind of approaches in making a render. In architectual renderings it is quite common to throw a couple of omnidirectional light sources somewhere in the space, then add a few directional sources and play with it until it looks realistic. The only judge of realism is the person that creates the design. Another appraoch would be to only make possible what is possible in real life and stay as close to the real characteristics of a fixture as possible and making the simulation as realistic as possible. You have to know what you are looking at in both cases. I think Capture has chosen the second path.

    I can imagine that you want to achieve a higher level of realism, but I hope you are willing to share these improvents. Therefore it is important to make sure changes are made to the global fixture library in stead of everyones own libraries. This also would make it harder to exchange files between computers.

    In my experience the people at AtlaBase (who handle the fixture library for Capture), are open to suggestions. The exeption might be if they get contradictory user input. I can imagine that this would be a reason to stick with the manufacturers specs. 

    I've had many cases where a photo really helps together with some basic information about the orientation of the fixture and the pan/tilt values.

    Floriaan Ganzevoort
    Lighting Designer - Theatermachine
    New Member
    Posts:7 New Member

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    2023-10-11 15:12
    Posted By Floriaan on 2023-10-09 13:47

    . Another appraoch would be to only make possible what is possible in real life and stay as close to the real characteristics of a fixture as possible and making the simulation as realistic as possible. You have to know what you are looking at in both cases. I think Capture has chosen the second path.

    Hi Floriaan,

    Thanks for the reply.  The issue I’m flagging here is in some cases the fixtures in the Capture library don’t match the characteristics of the real lights in major ways.  I’m not looking for subtlety or render quality.  Just that the light cast is vaguely the same size and shape in the render as it is in real life.  Otherwise there is no viable workflow to go back to Capture for tweaking cues once a production has moved from pre-vis onto the stage.  

    Have you approached AltaBase directly with issues in the past? Or have you gone via the Capture team with library discrepancies?

    Cheers,

    Cookie

    Veteran Member
    Posts:301 Veteran Member

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    2023-10-11 15:47

    I think these issues need to be addressed in order for other users to benefit as well. I've had really helpful and timely responses of an Atlabase representative through library [at] capture.se

    My issue was specifically about the order and rotation capabilities of the shutter system of a SolaFrame Theatre.

    I know for a fact that Robe is particulary bad at updating their manuals with the actual information after their spots go into production. They often keep their preliminary specs in the official documentation, which is causing problems for console manufacturers and the creators of visualisation software alike.

    The worst is actually when a spot manufacturer changes the dmx charts of their fixtures through a firmware revision. Then users will send in contradictory statements about the fixture and they are both right (see the nightmare that is the Skypanel). I hope your issues will be picked up soon. 

    Floriaan Ganzevoort
    Lighting Designer - Theatermachine
    New Member
    Posts:7 New Member

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    2023-10-11 15:57

    Ok thanks Floriaan.  That’s helpful information to know.  

    I agree, I’d rather this issue was corrected for all users.  But if that’s not on the table, I’ll take the option to correct the discrepancy with local fixture customisation. 

    I might try the Library team at Capture again and see if their position has changed at all around this issue with Mac Encores.   

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